(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]
SZ[9]RU[Chinese]KM[6.50]TM[1800]
PW[NeuroGo]PB[bwilcox]BR[3d]DT[2004-03-18]PC[The Kiseido Go Server (KGS) at http://kgs.kiseido.com/]RE[W+11.50]
;B[fd]BL[1796.505]CR[fd]C[bwilcox [3d\]: ok.
]
;W[fg]WL[1791.110]CR[fg]
;B[dd]BL[1788.988]CR[dd]C[NeuroGo [?\]: out of the book again, too bad, most opening book moves are from Martin
NeuroGo [?\]: do you still work on ego?
bwilcox [3d\]: No. Worked recently on Go Dojo Book on contact fights and sector fights (computer software book). Now working in cellphone go.
]
;W[cf]WL[1663.838]CR[cf]
;B[cd]BL[1778.793]CR[cd]
;W[dh]WL[1611.501]CR[dh]
;B[be]BL[1773.754]CR[be]C[NeuroGo [?\]: hmm...
bwilcox [3d\]: white's move was strange.
]
;W[gf]WL[1556.419]CR[gf]
;B[gd]BL[1766.390]CR[gd]C[tmc [4k\]: Come on black!
markian [13k?\]: come on white! :)
bwilcox [3d\]: Ego thinks white  +2.5
]
;W[bf]WL[1511.852]CR[bf]
;B[he]BL[1760.413]CR[he]C[bwilcox [3d\]: now .5
NeuroGo [?\]: neurogo W-2
tmc [4k\]: Yes :)
markian [13k?\]: bah. white should have played that in sente.
markian [13k?\]: why did you choose black to cheer for?
]
;W[hf]WL[1464.555]CR[hf]
;B[af]BL[1756.877]CR[af]C[tmc [4k\]: Ego is famous from the history of go.
tmc [4k\]: *computer go
]
;W[ce]WL[1426.460]CR[ce]
;B[bd]BL[1751.522]CR[bd]C[markian [13k?\]: ah.
]
;W[ag]WL[1388.737]CR[ag]C[markian [13k?\]: but neurogo "thinks like we do". :-)
]
;B[ae]BL[1746.395]CR[ae]C[tmc [4k\]: Speak for yourself!  ;)
bwilcox [3d\]: endgame lose for neurogo perhaps.
markian [13k?\]: well, _I_ use a neural network when I play go! :)
Nyarpy [9k\]: I bet yours functions a bit faster than this one, though...
NeuroGo [?\]: looks like it, there is not much room for a fight
markian [13k?\]: no, not really! :-P
Nyarpy [9k\]: I've always liked the idea of neural nets in go, but this is a BIG drawback without massively parallel computers...
]
;W[hc]WL[1285.678]CR[hc]C[bwilcox [3d\]: tricky
]
;B[bg]BL[1737.576]CR[bg]C[NeuroGo [?\]: however, it's worth a tray...
markian [13k?\]: true enough. neurogo on a connection machine would be cool.
NeuroGo [?\]: tray=try
markian [13k?\]: hm. this is getting interesting!
tmc [4k\]: I can't watch.
Nyarpy [9k\]: Many Faces would do h6 now.
]
;W[hd]WL[1180.225]CR[hd]
;B[ge]BL[1731.745]CR[ge]C[markian [13k?\]: did you check with manyfaces, or are you just very familiar?
Nyarpy [9k\]: Checked.
markian [13k?\]: what's better, j5 or f8?
Nyarpy [9k\]: Though, I am pretty familiar.
NeuroGo [?\]: neurogo: W-8
Nyarpy [9k\]: j5.
Nyarpy [9k\]: At least, that's what this 9k would do...
bwilcox [3d\]: Ego WHite 2.5 again assuming you connect underneath and ego defend on upper side.
]
;W[bh]WL[1090.686]CR[bh]C[Nyarpy [9k\]: Hmm, it's what Many Faces would do, too.
markian [13k?\]: which, the move or what bruce said?
tmc [4k\]: Computer go is fun to watch.
markian [13k?\]: so, nyarpy, you're not David, are you?
]
;B[ie]BL[1664.300]CR[ie]C[Nyarpy [9k\]: No, I'm Aaron.
Nyarpy [9k\]: Just a purchaser of MFoG.
markian [13k?\]: extend to f8 and fight?
markian [13k?\]: :)
markian [13k?\]: we were just wondering.
Nyarpy [9k\]: Best interface of any go program I've seen.
markian [13k?\]: true.
markian [13k?\]: hm... also a threat at e7...
bwilcox [3d\]: oh well, so much for that assumption.
Nyarpy [9k\]: Mr. Fotland is a 3d, IIRC...
markian [13k?\]: true, but he could be incognito. :)
tmc [4k\]: Looks complicated
]
;W[ee]WL[1006.733]CR[ee]C[markian [13k?\]: Though he said I could call him David when he have me a copy of MF. :)
markian [13k?\]: eew. I would have done the threat fro mthe other side@
markian [13k?\]: @ = !
tmc [4k\]: Quite right too markian
tmc [4k\]: G7 wins i think
]
;B[de]BL[1589.015]CR[de]C[markian [13k?\]: oh well. maybe markus will add this pattern to the training sets. :)
markian [13k?\]: you'd think g7 would win, but so would j5 have won! :)
markian [13k?\]: It looks like neurogo has given up those 2 stones as dead.
tmc [4k\]: Ego too.
]
;W[df]WL[929.397]CR[df]C[markian [13k?\]: that was useless!
]
;B[gc]BL[1576.016]CR[gc]C[markian [13k?\]: finally.
tmc [4k\]: Yes!
Nyarpy [9k\]: Does Neruogo just use a neural-net pattern matching?
markian [13k?\]: stupid wetwear. :)
markian [13k?\]: no
Nyarpy [9k\]: Or can it actually read moves ahead?
markian [13k?\]: it uses a network with integrated a-priori knowledge, and uses that combined evaluation to do a search.
Nyarpy [9k\]: I just find the sacrifice of letting black play j5 VERY strange for a computer program.
markian [13k?\]: do a web search for "integrating a-priori knowledge into a go-playing neural network"
]
;W[db]WL[856.156]CR[db]
;B[cb]BL[1567.561]CR[cb]C[tmc [4k\]: it does a search too I think
markian [13k?\]: the problem is that it can't always search deep enough since the neural net eval is so expensive.
markian [13k?\]: however, the neural net makes very interesting moves like d8 just now.
markian [13k?\]: alternatively, go look at www.cs.ualberta.ca/~emarkus
tmc [4k\]: How do you know about it markian?
]
;W[eb]WL[788.093]CR[eb]C[markian [13k?\]: e7 is now a significatn possibility again...
]
;B[fb]BL[1560.202]CR[fb]C[markian [13k?\]: because markus, the author, is playing down the hall from me in his office. :)
tmc [4k\]: Cool!
bwilcox [3d\]: gets messy. You might clobber me
markian [13k?\]: plus, I read the a-priori paper many years ago
markian [13k?\]: when I was too young to understand it.
NeuroGo [?\]: I don't think any of these attacks have a chance
tmc [4k\]: Doing CS?
]
;W[dc]WL[723.389]CR[dc]
;B[ef]BL[1552.413]CR[ef]C[markian [13k?\]: yes. PhD at the alberta games group with Schaeffer.
bwilcox [3d\]: then again...
tmc [4k\]: What on?
markian [13k?\]: automatic determination of alpha-beta search enhancements
NeuroGo [?\]: i like your book ez-go very much. it's the only book about go i know that is fun to read
]
;W[cc]WL[648.918]CR[cc]C[tmc [4k\]: It is all going horribly wrong.
]
;B[fe]BL[1543.457]CR[fe]C[markian [13k?\]: or, as we occasionally term it, meta-search
bwilcox [3d\]: thank you.
markian [13k?\]: this is fun!
]
;W[cg]WL[622.661]CR[cg]
;B[hb]BL[1536.830]CR[hb]C[NeuroGo [?\]: i already have a harcopy, but i am thinking about getting the pdf version too. do you know if acrobat for linux can display it?
tmc [4k\]: For a specific game? Or general trees?
bwilcox [3d\]: looks like you will live.
markian [13k?\]: for all games. :-) 
bwilcox [3d\]: any acrotbat should be able to display it.
]
;W[bc]WL[561.995]CR[bc]C[bwilcox [3d\]: that's why pdf is machine independent
markian [13k?\]: or, for all 2-player perfect info chess-like games. :)
]
;B[bb]BL[1526.066]CR[bb]C[NeuroGo [?\]: in theory, yes
bwilcox [3d\]: You might want Contact Fights software (windows but runs in linux under Wine). Shortly sector fights also.
]
;W[ac]WL[526.959]CR[ac]
;B[ed]BL[1512.540]CR[ed]C[Nyarpy [9k\]: a8 better for white?
Nyarpy [9k\]: Give a ko?
Nyarpy [9k\]: Or am I reading it wrong?
NeuroGo [?\]: btw, ther is a typo on one of your pages, you spell VINE instead of WINE
]
;W[eg]WL[479.811]CR[eg]
;B[if]BL[1505.522]CR[if]C[markian [13k?\]: can't tell; out of practice
bwilcox [3d\]: fixed already I think.
NeuroGo [?\]: is white a7 dead or alive
tmc [4k\]: I think A8 would have killed
]
;W[hh]WL[453.212]CR[hh]
;B[hg]BL[1498.233]CR[hg]C[Nyarpy [9k\]: A8, then black a7 for ko?
tmc [4k\]: Still might
bwilcox [3d\]: by human or computer standards.
Nyarpy [9k\]: I think white's dead, though.
NeuroGo [?\]: by human 3dan
tmc [4k\]: Sorry ko
tmc [4k\]: W A8?
]
;W[gg]WL[401.846]CR[gg]C[tmc [4k\]: I'm not a 4k :)  As you can tell
]
;B[ig]BL[1466.548]CR[ig]C[Nyarpy [9k\]: a8, black a7, white b9.
bwilcox [3d\]: If black plays 1st, white is dead. If white plays first, 
Nyarpy [9k\]: That's a ko for life.
tmc [4k\]: WC9
NeuroGo [?\]: should we toss a coin :)
]
;W[ga]WL[367.663]CR[ga]
;B[fa]BL[1457.348]CR[fa]C[markian [13k?\]: see what I mean about neurogo making interesting moves? 
bwilcox [3d\]: I dont think a coin will be needed.
NeuroGo [?\]: the typo is still on the webpage for Ego
markian [13k?\]: it's like you can tell when it's desperate!
Nyarpy [9k\]: Well, IMHO, any good go program makes "interesting" moves when it's behind.  Gotta try something...
]
;W[ab]WL[320.706]CR[ab]C[bwilcox [3d\]: ah, I was thinking dojo. yes. I'll go fix it shortlyl thanks.
]
;B[ea]BL[1438.400]CR[ea]C[bwilcox [3d\]: alive.
Nyarpy [9k\]: b9 kills here.
Nyarpy [9k\]: Now it's alive.
Nyarpy [9k\]: If white b9.
bwilcox [3d\]: white will win.
markian [13k?\]: b9 makes life!
NeuroGo [?\]: yay, that was luck
]
;W[ba]WL[285.733]CR[ba]C[bwilcox [3d\]: Life is like that.
]
;B[da]BL[1432.263]CR[da]C[markian [13k?\]: woohoo!!!!
markian [13k?\]: capture!!!!
tmc [4k\]: Yah boo sucks
NeuroGo [?\]: yeah, there is a lot of random noise
]
;W[ca]WL[252.696]CR[ca]C[bwilcox [3d\]: but neurgo winning is not a matter of luck.
]
;B[ih]BL[1426.674]CR[ih]C[markian [13k?\]: awsome!!!!!
bwilcox [3d\]: It tried, it thrashed, it read out the last bit correctly.
markian [13k?\]: now, if they can just stay alive..... :)
]
;W[hi]WL[228.038]CR[hi]
;B[ec]BL[1421.670]CR[ec]C[Nyarpy [9k\]: You mean NeuroGo might mess that up?
]
;W[ff]WL[209.299]CR[ff]
;B[ee]BL[1419.363]CR[ee]C[Nyarpy [9k\]: Not even a ko threat there...
markian [13k?\]: anything's possible, but it shouldn't in this sort of position AFAIK
]
;W[ad]WL[180.855]CR[ad]
;B[ii]BL[1395.518]CR[ii]
;W[fi]WL[171.516]CR[fi]
;B[]BL[1395.518]C[markian [13k?\]: the worrisome thing would be ego playing something really 'out there' causing neurogo to get confused.
Nyarpy [9k\]: g2 better.  Neruogo looks for too many "shape" moves.
]
;W[]WL[150.805]TW[aa][bb][cb][bg][dg][ah][ch][eh][fh][gh][ai][bi][ci][di][ei][gi]TB[ga][ha][ia][gb][ib][fc][hc][ic][hd][id])
